vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
103589-so-what-happened
Content ---- ---- ---- Translated: massive over use of time gating everywhere, turns out lots of people don't enjoy that. | |} ---- ---- That is a damn fine translation. Basically, it seems that "hardcore" doesn't work as well as they'd hoped ... and apparently modern MMO players have no real patience for what "worked" in game design a decade ago. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Chua pluralized is Chua.... | |} ---- ---- Theres still plunty of people on widow, check around later in the evening :D | |} ---- Fair enough. I just gave it the s so it wouldn't feel lonely. :( | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- We can hope. Sadly, there are people on the Dev Team to whom the very idea of "catering to a less than hardcore crowd" is just pure anathema. | |} ---- This is very true. One of the producers (Jeremy Gaffney) has posted stuff like this http://wildstar-central.com/threads/balance.2952/page-7#post-64164 This was a couple months back and may have just been ideological grandstanding, but it does underscore the point that there ARE members of the dev team who, at least at a vocal level, have advocated for catering to tiny player demographics. However, with how some of their ideas have simply blown up in their faces (Have you SEEN Warplots yada yada) I will be very surprised if they don't change their tune at least a little. | |} ---- ---- Yep. I don't want an EASY Wildstar. I want an ACCESSIBLE Wildstar. Hell, I just want to play Warplots. That's it. That's the ONLY reason I bought into this entire game - but I just don't have 500 minutes ( ! ) to spend in a queue to see one. | |} ---- Why do people solo queue for Warplots, these seem like Guild only events. | |} ---- Because we have the OPTION to solo queue? Because no one has said "Don't?" Because some of us aren't part of PVP Guilds and shouldn't be expected to be part of a PVP Guild in order to see this massive selling point? | |} ---- It's nice to have dreams. | |} ---- Thank you. This exactly. Pretty much this. And this +100 Exactly. Time trials and tunneled content is not challenging, it's something that should be optional and not pivotal to progression. How is a timed run of 4 dungeons relevant to entering Genetic Archives? At least in vanilla wow attunements were somewhat relevant quest wise ie: retrieving part of the molten core, dragon breath on the amulet, dracarian orb etc | |} ---- Wow. Everyone should read the link you posted. This is the mentality of someone who is stuck in 1999 wearing EverQuest-styled nostalgia tinted glasses. To summarize: "The 1% should lead by example because their goals will be the ones aspired by your average Johnny Casual." This is the most flawed logic I've ever read on how to cater to today's MMO market. Even admitting that almost 70% of the Western MMO audience participates in solo activities, their solution is to ... rep grinds and dailies, having solo story dungeons released regularly, dynamic PQ content (most to be revealed down the road), big frequent updates, housing stuff, good tradeskilling, and more.... So if you're not aspiring to become part of that 1% (which has arguably grown over time), you're stuck with housing, "big frequent updates" (yeah, that 3-hour Blighthaven Strain Patch was biiiig), and crafting. That's it. That's their "givings" to the stinking casuals who are an after-thought for a game to be played by "hardcore" players who actually seem to like tediousness more than anything else. Still waiting on those regular solo dungeons to be released by the way... Their belief that there is room for this kind of gameplay in the market just demonstrates how out-of-touch with the current MMO audience they currently are. Look, I'll commend them for creating a game for a niche playerbase. But I won't be shy in that they failed miserably in enticing people to become part of that niche playerbase when they never wanted to in the first place. This is fantasy-based design. I can't believe they even got funding for this game. I bet you it was NCSoft that forced the team to make some of the systems casual otherwise everything would be gated and "hardcore." People simply aren't sticking around because they failed to provide their "something for everyone" motto. The game is absolutely polarizing: you either log on to do your dailies and mess around with housing or run one Adventure; or you're wiping in Veteran Dungeons to learn the bosses or doing raiding. There's nothing in the middle. This was a bad design mentality/choice from the get-go. Also, they have this extreme obsession with Warplots that borders on insanity at this point. It seems like this amazing controlled chaotic PvP instance in their minds ("Release raid bosses on your enemies!") where in practice it's been an abject failure. A functionality that takes a minimum of 4-months to get up-and-running in order to even participate into it is a failed system. Everyone should read this: http://wildstar-central.com/threads/balance.2952/page-7#post-64164 | |} ---- I'm pretty sure the 500 min queue time is some one saying "Don't" It's like me complaining I can't queue in for Raids and I'm not apart of a big PvE guild. Raiding is PvE guild events, Warplot for PvP guild events. | |} ---- Yep. Could not have expressed it better myself ... without resorting to profanity. :lol: Oh well. Either someone higher up will finally click to how messed up that mentality is and hopefully take steps to correct it ... or we're going to continue to bleed subs until *every* server is a ghost town. I do find it vaguely ironic (and kind of funny) that my little "casual RP guild" continues to gain more people every damn day - and the "hardcore PVP and Raiding guilds" are all giving the game the finger. Seems to me the Dev Team really *IS* catering to the wrong crowd. | |} ---- Can you Solo Queue for Raids? Does that option even exist? No. Sorry amigo, your point is not valid. | |} ---- Still valid, if the remove the solo queue option people will still be complaining about warplots because they're not in a big PvP guild. My point still stands. Raiding is for PvE guilds Warplots for PvP guilds. Honestly don't know why they had a solo queue option for Warplots, everything about it's design is for big guilds. | |} ---- ---- Now I completely understand why they're not prioritizing fixing and correcting balancing issues but releasing content as their top priority: 2 months worth of data metrics, vast majority of the playerbase is casual and it looks like its part of their strategy to create "big content updates" to retain the casual playerbase. They're obviously very scared to be losing that audience. And something tells me NCSoft is breathing down their neck in that aspect. I also have to be fair and blame myself for not doing thorough research as to what exactly their design philosophy was for this game. Now that I know what it is (and what they expected to happen -- which didn't in any way), this game's MO is driven by the fantasy of a hardcore gamer entering his late 30s feeling nostalgic about his EQ days. | |} ---- So you listen to a marketing team instead of looking at the design and coming up with your own conclusion? Duh. | |} ---- It might not JUST be for PVP guilds only, but they are clearly meant to be the backbone of the feature. If they aren't there creating the base, then yes, you're gonna have to sit and wait for a crap ton of other solo players, or groups of players, to decide to run one the same time as you. I wouldn't expect to jump into a warplot without my guild backing it with a bunch of others. Can you queue solo? Sure. But the chances of getting 40 other people (just guessing it's 20 to a team, i haven't really read too much on it) to solo queue AT THE SAME TIME, across two factions, is pretty slim. It's logic. Just like queueing for a 5 man takes time, so queuing for a HUGE BG will take time too, unless people are actively telling others they're doing it. | |} ---- ---- There are a number of logistical problems with Warplots even for large PVP guilds. First of all, let me tell you that getting 40 people organized in today's MMO climate is tough. Getting 80 people happens about as often as the planets align. Getting 80 people organized in a game that didn't have the benefit of WoW's explosive popularity generating a massive playerbase, well... Now think about trying to get 80 people organized on a low pop server. The design flaws instantly come into view. Second problem: Warplots are a rated thing. However, the current design makes it -extremely- hard to have a variety of teams at different levels of ratings, which kind of defeats the purpose of attaching a rating to them altogether if you can only have so many teams by virtue of large team size. It's really simple math, the larger the team size, the fewer teams there are going to be. You may have seen it already but there's a good thread on it over here https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/88521-have-you-seen-warplots/ | |} ---- I guess that depends on whether or not you rolled on one of the populated servers. | |} ---- ---- And, much like that same gamer, the realities of paying the bills will become more important than sticking to your guns. I just want to be clear, I like the Dev Team. I like the hell out of Wildstar. Conceptually, artistically, aesthetically - it's everything I've ever wanted in a modern MMO, except the unfriendly anti-casual time-gated, hyper-inflated prices and time sinks EVERYWHERE. I mean, which part of dyeing armor is "hardcore?" That's something for the RP and "casual" crowd, right? How is 50 PLATINUM TO DYE ARMOR something even in this game? That's like ... a damn YEAR worth of CREDD just to dye your armor ONE TIME!?!?! Ludicrous. And that's just the first asinine thing that popped into my head. There are others just like that. | |} ---- I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with Warplots, I'm just saying the design is meant for large PvP guilds. When I first saw the Warplots video I already knew I would not see one for a long time. 80 people is a lot of people organize, two large PvP guilds would need to organize that. my argument is that it should not be for solo queue. Well I do like arguing, why would I be on the forum if I did not. | |} ---- ---- How hard would it be to have non-rated practice warplots with NPC ownership which would populate with 40v40 pugs. You know, Like AV. | |} ---- 1.) I have no idea what AV is. I'm just going to assume it's some code word for crack for MMORPGers. 2.) Warplots are more than just some battleground once it requires someone sinking money into it. Now that new battlegrounds is a better fitting for what you probably want. Take that sabotage bg and make a 20v20 version and maybe a 40v40 version.. That would probably be better for most people than Warplots. Then remove solo queue option for Warplots and leave that to the PvP guilds. | |} ---- So you want warplots inaccessible to genpop. Really seems like a proper way to have people playing the content devs put so much time into creating. AV is a 40v40 "warplot-esque" event to conquer territory towards the enemy base, it's existed and ran strong for 10 years in that other similar, popular game. Pre-Built warplots owned by NPC's with no rating would allow random people the chance to SEE >.> warplots without the tedium of finding and organizing 80 people. You click the button, you play warplot. | |} ---- AV is Alterac Valley in World of Warcraft. It had PvE bosses for each team to kill at the end. If I miss anything it was AV and WSG Also, I'd like to point out that there are very like multiple servers, that have yet to see a single Warplot match. Removing the solo queue is going backwards. Have you SEEN Warplots? No, most people haven't and likely never will. | |} ---- So ... all that work and no one to play? That just screams "terrible game design and totally wasted development dollars" to me. Basically, you're saying that only two fully-prepared PVP "Raid Teams" should ever be allowed to play Warplots? Yeaaaaaah. Have fun with that. | |} ---- Carbine might as well. Heck they are shutting people out every day, lets make adventures a DLC pack! Dungeons can also be a DLC pack, but you must also mail a vile of your' blood to Carbine so they can drink it. You know, soul sucking and whatnot., | |} ---- They have a solo queue button, and as you can see not enough people are queue for it. They could also just down size it to 20v20 instead of 40v40. How in my mind it should work is Guild A and Guild B both enter the queue, they get matched and fight. Now I haven't looked at Warplots much until I find a PvP guild, so have no idea if it's cross realm or not(if not, it should be). | |} ---- ---- 800 people can solo queue into warplot and if there are not 2 warparties with owned warplots queued, it will never pop. It's a bad design. Good on you to champion on for Carbine claiming design is great and fine, without having even attempted to explore the feature. | |} ---- I never said the design is great and fine, I said the design looks like it would only work for PvP guilds. Do people read these days :rolleyes: | |} ---- Remove the words "claiming design is great and fine" - and his sarcastic point is still valid. *knowingnodsmileyface* | |} ---- If you havn't tried it then don't opinionate all over the place for it. | |} ---- WSG was terrible(Why yes I did play Alliance. What gave me away? lol) I wasn't a huge PVPer in WoW I loved the old AV though. The one where you could (seriously) go to work and return home to the same match lol. The old NPCs! | |} ---- From what I hear, no one has tried it. We're all in a conversation of my opinion vs your opinion which can go on and on. I myself enjoy it, fun shit. | |} ---- people dont que warplot because its sooo hard to get the match to fire off at all. once they get people in the door, people might decide they like it enough to seek out warplot groups to both win more often and compete for fame and glory. Anyone with a brain can see carbine has failed warplots by not understanding the need to give everyone a taste of content to really get them excited to do more. .... you know if you just swap out warplots for any other section of content, you can spot most of the problems with wildstar. | |} ---- Wsg was super fun if you knew how to cheese with any given class and the match was close | |} ---- carbine+ncsoft *cupcake*ed it up big time...thats what happend ..well thats the short version | |} ---- Ooooh so I was correct, it is crack for MMORPGers. Yeah, that is the problem with Warplots. It takes a lot of time 80 people to do a PvP. It would take 2 large hardcore pvp guilds to put money and time into this. Once most of the PvPers left already, I don't know how many hardcore PvP guilds are surviving. | |} ---- Listening, Devs? | |} ---- Hey man, just wanted to pop in to maybe help you get into a warplot I have done a few so far... and we noticed some stuff about the Queue First off, i joined a "Warparty" which schedules them just like a raid... Im guessing unlike a Alterac valley type BG ... people have an attatchement to a "Death machine base" they can potentially lose... and without one created.. you cannot que your warparty (Perhaps having a "Defaulted" base vs base and making it a "BG" of some sorts could bring people into warparts.... albeit not the custom fun house of death ... but a pre-set base) Either way... turns out warpartys schedule times to fight each other... and generally do not just randomly pop up a que (Although some warparties do) which leads me to... most warpartys fill their ranks before entering the queue, so warparties very well could be popping.. but its a full 40 team vs another full team of 40... no space for a merc in that case On the other hand ... i don't know of many mercs queuing into warplots ... Because we did attempt a queue with 34 people ... and sat in it for 16 minutes before recruiting a random 6 people in zone chat... We clicked queue and 2 minutes later it popped ... so maybe only 1 or 2 people on exile side had been solo queued for it.. and it WILL not start without 40 on each side So if they wanted people to at least get some of the warplot experience.. especially solo players who wouldnt take much part in the construction portion (we take a week to build a base) They could just as i said.. they could allow "Pre-set" designs and start these matches with 20-30 people and as per norm for them.. cap it at 40 people each side just trying to help yah get into them.. i know its bullshit sometimes.. its my ONLY gripe with the pvp system.. an entire feature that barely gets utilized | |} ---- I'm not sure Gaffney's post supports your intended argument. Catering to the 1% does not inherently mean ignoring the 99%. It simply means you're providing a product that appeals specifically to that 1% in some way. Every MMO I've come across attempts to do that in some form or another. And, as he also mentions in that post, they've tried to make the game cater to "actually a few different 1%s." That's another way of saying they're trying not to ignore anyone who plays their game. He even goes on to say "We're trying to make everyone useful, so the major guilds will end up with raiders, warplotters, and soloers contributing to the overall guild's success, in roughly the proportions they naturally exist in the playerbase." Carbine has indeed said repeatedly that they want the game to appeal to hardcore players, but as far as I've seen, they've never once said that they want to alienate everyone else. With all of that said, they have a difficult task ahead of them. On one hand, you have a group of players who only play Wildstar because of the difficulty, and on the other hand, you have players who quit the game because of the difficulty. They'll either figure it out, or they won't. For us it's a hobby. For them, it's a career. They have slightly more riding on it than we do. | |} ---- 500 minute Queue? That's EZ mode. Back in my day we played 4-5 day Alterac Valley matches, one fight over 5 days. #hardcore | |} ---- Yeah. Me, too. The trick there, however, is I WAS PLAYING! Unlike here, where apparently NO ONE is playing. Man, if I was the guy who designed warplots, I'd be pissed right now. Years of hard work so maybe 200 out of 500,000 people could see it. That's got to be a great feeling. By great, I mean terrible. | |} ---- Well then. You're right on that. All the "Have you SEEN warplots?" stuff got me excited. I've been 50 for a while, most I've seen is my warplot bank area. | |} ---- ---- I've seen the Warplot Gear Vendor in Thayd! So I guess I've SEEN Warplots! | |} ---- Well most got to 50 in first month or two aaaand that's it! | |} ---- ----